Tony DiNozzo: Competent Agent, Frat Boy or something else?

[webbgirl]

After watching the past couple of seasons of NCIS in rapid succession, I had this post forming on Tony's character and his growth, or lack thereof.  I kept debating on whether to actually post it or not, then I saw a couple of spoilers for upcoming episodes In the upcoming episode Knockout (6.18) we're promised more info on Tony's background.  The writers (or producers can't remember which) also promised that we'll get lots of angsty info in the season finale on Tony. I'm personally hoping for some background that shows us why he reverts to the frat boy mentality and womanizer when things get too 'real' or uncomfortable for him.
Anyway, my post is more about Tony as a good agent than it is about other stuff.  Through all the seasons of NCIS we get glimpses of Tony being a really good investigator and having great instincts.  Unfortunately, these moments tend to be eclipsed by his goofing around or his attempts to show off for Gibbs. 

I'm going to lose my Gibbs/DiNozzo slasher card for this, but I think that him being around Gibbs is the problem.  I also think this is somewhat intentional on the writers parts. When we see Tony in charge of a situation (rather than following Gibbs' lead) we get to see his analytical skills and leadership capabilities. 

This is even evidenced in "Bait" when Tony has to take over when Gibbs ends up in the classroom with the kid. We also see it in "In The Zone" when Tony and Nikki (sp?) go to Baghdad.  Once they're in Baghdad, Tony was the epitome of a seasoned investigator.

Back to "Bait" though.  One of the things this episode highlighted for me was Tony's willingness to stand up to Jenny when he professionally disagreed with her.  He stood up to her in a way I don't think we've ever seen him stand up to Gibbs.  I don't think it was out of a lack of respect, but it felt more like him claiming his place as 'Senior Field Agent'.  It demonstrated it clearer than all of the times he's spouted the words to Ziva and McGee.

Question is, why has Tony never been able to stand up to Gibbs the way he stood up to Jenny?  When Gibbs returned to NCIS and essentially brushed Tony back into his place, Tony bowed back into his spot and deferred to Gibbs.  I know that they showed the awkwardness of the transition, but I felt like it was mostly played for laughs.  Though, I found the part of him turning down his own team for the sake of watching out for Gibbs heartbreaking.  Again though, he was able to be honest with Jenny about it.  I think if he'd been dealing with Gibbs in a similar situation he would have just played it off and made a joke.

My fondest desire for this season is that we finally get to really see Tony coming into his own, even when he's around Gibbs.  And that we get to see some honest acknowledgment that he's not just the comic relief.  I think it would be a natural outgrowth of what happened with Jeanne and Jenny.  Situations like that are either going to break someone or make them stronger in the long run.  I'd love to watch the process of the latter with Tony.

Any thoughts or comments from everyone else on this?

Comments

[captain-tiv.livejournal.com]

Oooh, this is gonna be a long-winded post. :)

I think we're dealing with multiple layers of a relationship between Gibbs and Tony. Notice how Gibbs will sort-of protect Tony from anyone? Notice how Tony will get between Gibbs and others (although he loves to be the one to push people around himself) when Gibbs goes on a tirade?

When Kate died, Tony was the ONLY one who was brave enough to try to piss Gibbs off. He was the only one who got it that Gibbs wasn't himself during that time. When Tony got the plague, Gibbs had a guard in handcuffs and was holding a gun on a scientist. When the scientist told Gibbs that there was a 15% chance of Tony surviving, he was absolutely scared to death.

I think Tony also has to walk a very fine line. He probably is the equal to Gibbs when it comes to investigating, but there are two probies on the team. Gibbs is always serious. Tony can be serious, he can be the frat boy. I think part of his behavior is his trying to bridge that gap between the probies and Gibbs.

There's an "equalness" between Gibbs and Tony that isn't shared by any other agents. There's also an 'understanding' that you can see in a lot of episodes that these two are on the same frequency. There have been times when Tony has sort-of stood up to Gibbs, but what if he did it whole-heartedly? What would happen to team cohesion and the hierarchy of command? What would happen to the probies? I think Tony's protective nature wouldn't allow him to do that.

Now for a plot idea -- I think things have happened to Tony in the past when he was with the police department where he couldn't trust the people he worked with. Maybe his life was in danger from his fellow cops. Along came Gibbs, and he proved that he could be trusted. Something happened, and Tony and Gibbs end up owing each other their lives. Maybe that's one of the reasons Gibbs brought Tony into the NCIS, and maybe that's why Tony accepted. Tony didn't get that job just because he smiled. Perhaps that beginning is why Tony doesn't challenge Gibbs openly?

[captain-tiv.livejournal.com]

More to say --

Tony is big on loyalty. Whatever has happened before we met the crew, Gibbs won Tony's loyalty. There's a fic out there where a lady was talking to Gibbs. She told him that if anyone out there could understand the real Tony DiNozzo, understand him and support him and not lie to him, then Tony would walk through fire for that person. Looked like Gibbs was the one to do that.

There's also the theory that maybe Tony didn't need to challenge Gibbs the way he challenged Jenny. Jenny hadn't been a field agent in a long time. She hadn't worked with Gibbs in a long time. Gibbs had changed and learned and grown in a different direction. Tony and Gibbs know how to do the job a certain way. They're cut from the same bolt of cloth. Jenny wasn't.

But then there's this -- does Tony really need to challenge Gibbs? There are times I think he needs to headslap Gibbs, but to outright challenge him? Would that work given the personalities they have? Tony likes to egg people on. When he challenges them, he gets that serious look in his eye that means he means business. It's almost like there's no middle ground for him. He's either making jokes or deadly serious.

[captain-tiv.livejournal.com]

Personally, I wish they'd tone down the frat boy attitude. When Kate was there, it wasn't nearly as bad as it is now. He was serious with Jeanne (yeah, I know, undercover work, but I think we got to see the real Tony during that time).

[webbgirl.livejournal.com]

I think that's what I'm ultimately looking for is more of a balance with the frat boy stuff. It really does feel like we get an all or nothing depending on the episode sometimes. I agree that there have been great episodes that show a bit of both ("Agent Afloat" is a good example of that) but then there are episodes where it feels like he hasn't grown at all in the past 6 years.

But maybe that's just me looking for my specific tastes in the show.

[kelly-girl.livejournal.com]

Thinky stuff about Tony. I like.

I think there are many reasons Tony reverts back to the frat boy and womanizer. It's easier and lowers people's expectations of him.*

This does two things. People get to be awed and amazed when he does end up doing something smart, and if people don't expect much from him then he can't disappoint them.

Maybe he was used to disappointing his father while growing up.

Even though we don't know exactly how he came to Gibbs' attention, we know Gibbs would not put up with Tony unless he saw something that could be I guess, 'honed' into a good NCIS agent. And they do a great 'bad cop, good cop' with suspects.

Maybe with Tony's other jobs he wasn't living up to his full potential and no one cared because they all thought he was Frat boy.

But Gibbs saw under that and challenged Tony to be more. Gibbs doesn't do praise a lot but even the tiniest bit gets Tony going (in a non slashy way) and he always wants more. He's kind of like Tony's drug.

The Frat boy stuff also works well for Tony when interviewing and interrogating suspects. They blow him off and underestimate him. He uses that.

I too wish they'd addressed the stuff when Gibbs came back more. I do love the scene, I think it's after he's offered his own team, where Tony is talking to someone on the phone and he's telling them to call Gibbs because he's back in charge. People are scared of Gibbs, but don't see Tony as a threat.

Also, Tony's played this role so long I don't know if others he works with would be able to see him as anything else.

Remember when Tony said something about getting his own Team and McGee blew him off? They all do it and most times he's okay with that. They're not pinning hopes on him and he can't disappoint them.

I think this ability hide behind the frat boy and womanizer mask serves him while undercover.

Even before Jeanne he did undercover that was convincing in 'Split Decision' as Gus Bricker and in 'Chained,' as an escaped prisoner.

As for standing up to Gibbs, I'm trying to think if he ever has. He kind of did it in first season finale when they were arguing about Ari. But even that wasn't a direct out and out protest.

Maybe his inability to really argue with Gibbs is part of his hero-worship because that is a whole other story with Tony. He fangirls Gibbs like whoa.

Or deep down maybe he thinks if he seriously goes against Gibbs in something important then he'll disappoint Gibbs or that Gibbs won't 'like' him anymore. Tony's got issues.

I also want to know more about Ducky's statment in an ep that Gibbs used to be more like Tony.

I wonder if that is a hint that as time goes on Tony will be more and more like Gibbs until eventually he's like Gibbs even around Gibbs.


*My own opinions of course and those may change later*

[captain-tiv.livejournal.com]

I wonder what happened between Tony and Gibbs when they first met. Given how Abby and Ducky feel about Tony and act around him, I get the feeling that there was this little foursome who got cases solved for a while. Then along came others.

There's definitely a father/son vibe going on with Gibbs and Tony IMHO as well as teacher/student and friend/friend. I think Tony never wants to disappoint Gibbs, practically breathes for a "Good work, DiNozzo" compliment from Gibbs. It's probably the only way Tony knows how to behave with someone he sees in that light?

[webbgirl.livejournal.com]

I agree with the hero worship thing (and most of what you've said here as well) and I think that's part of the problem I'm having more recently with the Tony/Gibbs relationship. Hero worship is fine for awhile, but it tends to stunt the growth of the person doing the worshiping.

What I would really love is to see Tony and Gibbs' relationship develop into something more along the lines of Gibbs and and Ducky's where they relate as something closer to equals.

I don't doubt that Gibbs believes in Tony's ability or that he respects him. I also don't think that the problems necessarily come from Gibbs side of the fence. I think it's more the fact that Tony *does* revere him so highly and wants so badly to impress him that makes it hard for Tony to really settle into his own as an agent.

And being completely selfish as a Tony fan, I'd love for us to be able to see more moments where Gibbs directly acknowledges Tony.

We know from various situations,Gibbs going toe to toe with Vance in "Agent Afloat" to get Tony back, Gibbs worrying over Tony in "Bury Your Dead" and "SWAK", etc...that Gibbs really does care for Tony (and that's even without my slash goggles on *g*). It just seems like he doesn't acknowledge Tony directly as much as he seems to with Abby or Ducky or even with McGee on occasion. But maybe that's my Tony fan talking. *g*

[captain-tiv.livejournal.com]

What if Gibbs needs someone to behave the way Tony does to do his job as well as he does?

[webbgirl.livejournal.com]

That's an interesting thought. He needs someone with Tony's goofiness to counter his hard-assedness? I'll have to ponder that as I go back and rewatch more episodes.

Nope. Not obsessed at all! :D

[http://users.livejournal.com/_tweeter_/]

I'm starting to get frustrated with the way they portray Tony. He's my guy and I'll defend him to the death, but even I'm tempted to smack him once in awhile.

There was one recent episode where Tony is talking to Ziva and McGee and Gibbs comes in; Tony stands up at attention and is all nervous and deferential... and he wasn't even doing anything stupid at the time. It bugged the heck out of me.

They call him DiBozo on TWoP, which bugs me no end. But the way they're writing him, it's hard to argue. I still do, but it's very very difficult.

[webbgirl.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't mind a sprinkling of goofy Tony, but it seems to overshadow any of the good stuff.

Maybe what I'm looking for is to have someone (other than Jenny or Gibbs on the sly) openly acknowledge Tony as a good agent who has experience and knows what he's doing.

[captain-tiv.livejournal.com]

Let's look at it from the other direction too --

Gibbs doesn't really put up with nonsense. He adores Abby and lets her get away with all kinds of things because she's so quirky. He really likes Ducky and lets him tell long-winded stories (sometimes). He's a difficult agent to work for and doesn't put up with nonsense -- why does Gibbs let Tony get away with what he lets him get away with?

Remember in the episode after Jeanne found out the truth about Tony? Tony put superglue on McGee's keyboard. All Gibbs said was, "When are you ever gonna learn, McGee?"
Gibbs would have ripped anyone else a new liver for doing that. For whatever reason, Tony alone is allowed to get away with all kinds of shenanigans.

[kelly-girl.livejournal.com]

Good points! I've thought for a long time that Gibbs used Tony as a sort of litmus test on the other agents.

If Kate, McGee, and Ziva could survive Tony then it somehow made them better agents and if they can survive the frat boy and the Marine then they're the best team in NCIS.

Gibbs has also used Kate and co. to fire up Tony's competitive streak. He and Kate ofter vied for Gibbs' attention by having information he needed or ideas about their cases.

Same for McGee and Ziva though I think as shy as McGee is, he's more confident in his tech smarts, and Ziva is confindent with her profiling and fighting skills.

Loved the first season where Gibbs mentions that he'll have to learn how to work his PDA from Tony who learned from McGee and how backward that is.

But later Gibbs is a little more proficeint with his PDA(only a little since they end up replacing his phone or pda a lot)so Tony must have taught him a few things.

So yeah Tony acts goofy, plays jokes, maybe makes the serious times a little easier to take and Gibbs observes how others react.

Gibbs does the same with suspects. Send in the agent that seems all goofy and busy leering at women and then bam! a question or two and the suspect is in handcuffs.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_tweeter_/]

One more thing.

I like the Gibbs/Tony relationship in Ice Queen and Meltdown. Tony is almost an equal, and definitely a valued member of Gibbs' team. Gibbs leaves him in charge of the case of the dead JAG while he goes to interrogate the terrorist. When he talks to Tony via radio, he tells him he needs him there (on the ship).

Gibbs not only trusts Tony, but he depends on Tony.

I like that.

OT: Weird, I can't see the comments unless I go to post my own.

[webbgirl.livejournal.com]

I loved their relationship in Ice Queen. I just rewatched those eps recently. Maybe it's the feeling that Tony has gone backwards in the time between that's bugging me.

Not sure what's going on with the comments. I don't have any weird settings that I know of on this post.

[allhoneyboo.livejournal.com]

Tony's character is complex. I agree with you about him being professional one minute and a goof ball the next. He used to love to do that to Kate. He'd make her think he was goofing off or sleeping and then when Gibbs came around he'd be answering all the questions. I do think this stems from his background. Some of the hints we've gotten is he was neglected by his parents and that they possibly had a loveless marriage. His father often ignored him a lot (forgetting him in that hotel room) and at the risk of offending slashers as well, I think he needs Gibbs' approval in a father figure sort of way because of this. I

also remember him getting presents on his birthday from his father that don't relate to him at all (the power sander).

I hope we get to meet Tony's father. hee!

[webbgirl.livejournal.com]

*hee* I'm watching the scene where he talks about the power sander right now. I do think his parental issues feed into why he's so desperate for Gibbs approval. It's just frustrating that the clown/frat boy part of his personality seems to overshadow everything else most of the time.

I'd really love to meet his father at some point.

[captain-tiv.livejournal.com]

I think Gibbs meeting Tony's dad would be very interesting.

Tony's like an ogre, I mean onion... :-)

[tejas.livejournal.com]

Over here from the newsletter.

Everyone's said just about everything. :-)

Remember in One Shot, One Kill, when Tony found out Gibbs hadn't worn his vest? "I'm going to kill him", I think is the quote. Tony was pissed and I got the feeling Gibbs heard about it. The thing is, Tony will only ever chew Gibbs out in private. He won't do it in front of anyone else, because Gibbs is the boss. You don't rag on the boss and possibly undermine his authority. Gotta remember he attended a military academy for his high school. He learned this young. His comment to Gibbs comparing him to Captain Ahab was just the two of them (yeah, they were on the stairs, but they were also speaking quietly). As Gibbs' second, he has to set the tone for the others. He's got to jump higher and react faster than anyone else.

Oh! And in Agent Afloat, when Gibbs was on the transport plane, the captain told Tony something about "I've got a man on that plane!" Tony responded with, "So do I." When it's just the two of them, when the rest of the team isn't there, they do come across as feeling fairly equal to each other. No question of who's in charge, but they relate to each other far differently on their own than they do with the rest of the team at hand.

Tony has many, many masks and I would dearly love to see more about where they originated and if he's completely aware of why he uses them. He is, by far, the most complex character on the show.

Re: Tony's like an ogre, I mean onion... :-)

[captain-tiv.livejournal.com]

You can almost hear Gibbs saying, "I'm the boss. When I'm not in the room, Tony's the boss. Got it?"

[rabican.livejournal.com]

I very much agree with tejas about Tony being the most complex character on the show... which is why his writing in season 6 annoys me so much. He's regressed in a lot of ways, and I think it's pretty obvious that the writers are just looking for cheap laughs.

I do wonder if it can be fanwanked, though, given Gibbs' weirdness towards Tony this season. He's been very curt and cold - I mean, even for Gibbs. No headslaps, nothing that's a compliment even if you look at it through a Gibbs-filter and an awful lot of cutting remarks (as opposed to your usual Marine chivvying). Perhaps Tony's being more of a fratboy because he's acting out? Negative attention is better than nothing! I mean it doesn't quite work, because that doesn't explain things like Tony ... not knowing why Gibbs doesn't drink on a stakeout ... despite having more stakeout experience than McGee ... (that was just strange) ... but it's better than nothing.

With every Tony hint that we're given from the Powers that Be, the more convinced I am that "Callen," the character from the NCIS spinoff who's supposed to have chameleon-like abilities of subterfuge, is actually Tony. And my guess is that the tension between Gibbs and Tony is going to be the impetus to drive him up and away - hopefully as team leader, since we've seen that he's been ready since the beginning of season 4.

I'm a Gibbs/DiNozzo shipper (for early seasons at least), but I agree with you that Gibbs isn't so good for Tony, at least not any more. So honestly, if I am right about Tony moving to the spinoff, I don't mind too much. So long as the show doesn't, you know, suck, I think it'll be good for the character. He's been kind of frozen since the middle of season 5 or so, apart from his reactions to Jenny's death.

On another note: is it just me, or is Tony and Jenny's relationship something of a desert in fanfic territory? Jenny always seems to get cast as a villain when she's not being shipped, that I've seen, but I don't think she and Tony had a negative relationship. I don't think it was a healthy one, either, but she mentored him and saw his potential, even while manipulating him to her own ends. I really think we should have seen more of how her death affected him.

*clings*

[webbgirl.livejournal.com]

I've actually been secretly praying that Tony is the character for the spinoff (for pretty much the exact reasons you've listed here) and that TPTB have just been keeping it under super-secret wraps.

Watching the earlier seasons on DVD recently makes me sad for what seems to be missing in the Gibbs/DiNozzo relationship right now. Both on a gen and a slashy level.

On another note: is it just me, or is Tony and Jenny's relationship something of a desert in fanfic territory? Jenny always seems to get cast as a villain when she's not being shipped, that I've seen, but I don't think she and Tony had a negative relationship.

YES!! Thank you. I actually saw their relationship in Season 4 as being a better one than what Gibbs and Tony have right now. She seemed to respect him more as a leader rather than just a member of 'her' team.

I do blame lazy writing overall, but I'm hoping that all of this stuff does end up panning out to something interesting for Tony by the end of the season.

[xanthelj.livejournal.com]

Lots to chew on here! I'm here by way of the newsletter. I'm often bemoaning much the same stuff as you. I think the problem is MW's comic talents are so good the producers want to use them excessively, which means Tony can never grow up. And it's also true that when I rewatched the first 5 seasons in order recently, I was aware that S4 was slower and less buzzy because Tony was more serious. I WANT him to be shown in a more competent light but if it goes too much that way then we seem to lose some of the spark he brings.

I do think Gibbs's management style inherently causes some of the problems. He's always "Dad" so the "kids" always have to be kids. There's no room for them to grow up - he almost doesn't LET there be room for them to grow up.

I LOVE the moments when Tony stands up to Gibbs best - and there have been several of them but they're so tiny. There was that ep where Gibbs goes off with his old CO (who is hallucinating) and calls Tony and Tony is all "Where the hell are you?" and sounds very pissed. There's the gorgeous scene in "Cloak" where Gibbs admits its his plan and Tony is furious and says "Well that's much worse". There's Tony standing up to Gibbs when Gibbs returns from Mexico - saying these are his people now and he doesn't sit on the sidelines when his people are in trouble.
I also love that scene in the plane when they've got that captured arms dealer and Tony is doing all the talking and Gibbs is just watching and saying things every so often and seems SO amused by Tony. And Tony isn't making faces or letting Gibbs take the lead - the two seem to be genuinely enjoying the show they're putting on.

But there are so few glimpses of that. I so wish we could see competent!Tony and standing up to Gibbs!Tony more often as he's electrifying and sometimes I think Gibbs NEEDS someone to stand up to him. Jenny was a weak director who let their past interfere too much with her ability to command him so he walked all over her. He's even walking all over Vance. He might say he never wants the top job but he IS de facto Director as far as I can see.

I think the humour is just too juvenile sometimes - Tony is more grown up in S1 and S2 than he is in S6 - he seems to get more silly as the years pass. And yet we still see those tantalising glimpses of another Tony underneath.

But the actor turned 40 last year - I don't know how old Tony is supposed to be but there has to come a time when the whole frat boy thing will just seem very uncomfortable and weird, surely?

[captain-tiv.livejournal.com]

Which episode did Gibbs and Tony get captured by the arms dealer?

[dhae_knight_1]

Here from the newsletter.

For me, the annoying thing is that sloppy writing means I can no longer accept NCIS as-is. I'm so annoyed with the way the writers abuse Tony's levity and humor, at the cost of the little scenes we used to get, where MW got to shine and hint that Tony is much more than the comic relief.

And I think, especially now when I'm rewatching Stargate, where they do manage to have a guy who's part funny as hell - part professional to the core (I'm thinking of Jack O'Neill here).

Really, Tony has always been my favorite character, but the way he's being written right now, you'd think the writers didn't watch the show. You'd think they haven't got a clue just how much MW infuses Tony with. And you'd definitely think that they've forgotten that Tony is Gibbs' senior field agent. Because, really? That in itself should tell them that Tony is much, much more than just the comic relief. He's a competent, skilled agent, the one person aside from Ducky who'll stand up to Gibbs in a snit, and the one guy Gibbs will entrust with his team in times of crises.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_tweeter_/]

Word!!!

Tony's my favorite and they're annoying me with the way they're writing him. If you just tuned in you'd wonder what the hell he was doing on the team, not to mention why he was senior field agent.

Like I said, I love the way he's written in Ice Queen and Meltdown.

[captain-tiv.livejournal.com]

So let's throw another ingredient into the mix.

What if the degree of fratness in Tony's behavior depends solely on the person he's trying to get a reaction from and how well they play along with him?

Notice how Abby plays right along with him? He doesn't play jokes on her at all.

Ducky's not the kind of person to play tricks on, but Tony does manage the occasional joke with Ducky. He doesn't play jokes on Ducky.

Palmer's just kind of there.

With Kate and Ziva and McGee, he goes full blast sometimes. Also, they don't treat him with the respect that goes with someone in his position at times. Ducky and Abby do.

Jenny -- well, I have a few issues with her because I think she used him to get to The Frog, but I do think she respected him both as a person and an agent.

Vance -- can I kick him? He annoys me sometimes.

We've talked all about Tony's relationship with Gibbs. :)

[webbgirl.livejournal.com]

I think Tony does have different reactions and different levels of reactions depending on who it is.

With McGee I think it's a sibling thing where Tony sees toughening Tim up as part of his duty.

Kate was also a sibling thing, but with her it was more of them vying for Gibbs' attention.

Ziva...*sigh* Ziva I feel like it's more of a defense mechanism on his part. He wants to include her in the team, but she ruffles at it. It all seems very combative.

I agree on the Jenny thing. In spite of the Frog thing, I still think she respected Tony and saw him as good at his job.

Vance, I haven't quite gotten a handle on him yet. I'm hoping that we get an actual answer at some point on why he sent Tony to the Regan and Seahawk. He says it wasn't a punishment, so what was the reason?